I felt this would be a good way to keep this stuff going. Its a good discussion overall, and its sparking my interest in other technologies.
I am a pretty big fan of using XML for all my Database needs. asp.net has some very nice classes to work with xml. Does CF have anything like that? Eventually I will have to learn MsSQL and MySQL, but for the time being XML has suited me very well. considering I can view my database from a browser directly to make sure my data is being handled correctly, where you don't have this capability in other Database systems.

CF have anything!!. There is good article writted by Ben Forta. Check on http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/mx/coldfusion/articles/cf_aspnet08.html.

There are few difference:
1) CF is learning curve.
2) less code
3) easy debugging (using cfdump tag)
so go on..

Thanks, but the link didn't work.
post it again.

I dunno... i used CF back in the CF4-5 days... I think it's WAY more typing than necessary (all the "<" and ">" alone is enough to drive somebody mad). And what's with putting CF* in front of everything? CFIF, CFELSE, CFQUERY, CFOUTPUT, CFBLAHBLAHBLAH... gimme a Break. Also, to get the amount of power and control necessary to do anything beyond the supported CFTAG functionality there seem to be alot of extra steps involved. And I'm not talking about the java functionality, because how many "normal" developers out there actually jump straight to the Java API underlying evrything? Exactly... hardly a one. And if anybody disagrees, please prove me wrong... but dont just provide links or say "so and so said so"... SHOW us what you know and give us examples in the thread.

ASP.NET has more of a learning curve, yes. It also forces very good programming habits with it's strict options always on (for the VB folks) and is more flexible than any other framework currently available. What other framework will allow you to program in 3+ different languages that all compile into the same thing? Not many. And where else can you find such an extensive API that's also organized anywhere near as well as the .NET framework? Yes, Java's close in this regard. Any others?

It just seems to me that a truly and easily scalable future thinking app with lots of options that almost any seasoned developer can use would be one of the more popular choices. Everytime CF revises it's... application? Not really a framework... anyway, everytime CF is revised, half the tags break and you need to go in and tweak every bit of code. That's not exactly future proofing. When .NET 1.0 was out, and transitioned to .NET 1.1, I can't recall a single "legacy" feature that didn't work or needed modification to be able to use the updated framework. And when 2.0 releases, all 1.0 & 1.1 versioned code is said to work - keeping the legacy functions working. Now that's some good planning by enabling the developer to roll up to the new stuff at their pace, and not be forced to in order to maintain a working app AND not have to be on the old platform.

And then there's the support for classes and overloaded methods and the whole hierarchy of inheritance of nested classes and functions that are supported... the organization and amount of reusable code alone should be enough to sell most people.

And sure, there is quite a bit of CF stuff you can do with less code, but how much control are you forfeiting by using the CFTags and using less code? QUITE A BIT... and for some of us, the control is where the power lies. Then there are some of us who could care less and just rely on MM to get things done for us

That's a start...

Watchout here come the CF addicts to downplay all the facts you just stated. I couldn't agree more with you josh. .NET I think will be around a very long time. From what I hear microsoft wants to expand the .NET framework to cover not just the basic languages ( C++, C#, VB, J# ). The idea is that eventually some 20 different languages will have support in the .NET framework. I think this alone, not to meantion the infinite number of uses .net can be used for ( desktop application, mobile devices, websites, ect... ) puts it at the top of the food chain. I am not a fan of anything that trys to take the control away from the programmer and force you to use their predefined commands, syntaxes, and algorithms. I don't even use SQL because I am such a control freak with my databases. .NET allows me to move my data around the way I want to. Yeah and I don't like the whole CFIF CFELSE crap either. Its like putting your name on everytag, not cool. Keep it low level and simple.

One more thing anybody who thinks its easier to write a backend for you client using Flash and CF is out of their mind!!!
And just to prove it try this in flash and CF. Provide an interface that allows your clients to upload photos to a gallery, have the server stamp a logo(png) on them and then resize them to the proper dimensions ( one for a thumbnail, and another for a full size ), and also allow your client to do this in batches. meaning they can simply highlight some 100 pictures click upload and and then walk away. This is the kind of control I can't live without, and its what I have done in ASP.NET. Flash is great to wow your clients with 3D and animation, but has no place in application development.

My understanding is that there are currently 30 plus languages that compile to MSIL: Delphi, Cobal, Fortran, SmallTalk (I think) - those are the non-MS ones I remember. I think Delphi is the only non-MS one I've read that has an IDE comparable to VS. The MS languages have an advantage though since their compilers are included free with the framework.

I will refrain from saying that .NET is "better" than CF because a lot of the comparison depends on what you are doing wiht the language as to which is better. If you have a Flash front end and want to tie it into a database backend and do some other craziness, then CF might be your correct choice. The thing about .NET is the flexability it affords the developer. The ability to build enterprise level applications with ease and flexability has been made much easier since the inception of .NET. That power and flexability trickles down to us little devlopers as well. Making ell formed, n-tier, OOP apps for the web has been made exponentially easier because of .NET, and it's only going to get better. I continue to be amazed at what I am able to do, how easy it is to do it (and ease does not directly translate into # of lines of code - that is largely irrelevant) and how using .NET has made me a better programmer and not a better hacker.

Here are a couple things that are kinda cool in .NET but that are no-go in CF

Multi-threading
Native, built-in image manipulation
Asynchronus calls to web services
Native internationalization
User Controls

I was just at a .NET user group meeting where the presentation was an overview of the new stuff coming in .NET 2.0, with a lot of focus on ASP.NET 2.0. I'd heard of most of the stuff before, but to see it all in action at once... there's a ton of cool stuff there. One of the goals of .NET 2.0 is to reduce the coding the developer has to do by 70%. I don't think they'll quite meet this, but I can see a lot of things there that are going to save a lot of work. And, with the "Express" versions of everything (in particular SQL Server), they're making this stuff pretty accessible to developers.

2.0 has a ton of good stuff coming our way - I am actually postponing doing some training until 2.0 comes out so that I can jump into it at that point.

yes cfm has excellent xml controls, IMO better than .net

and for the record Josh doesnt know crap about what he is spewing!!
cfm 4-5 is not the same as mx not even close!! And I have seen his code and he writes 3x as much code as whats needed.

Ok here is a funny thing, a lot of us like cfm because we think it's easier and faster to use and the .net ppl always complain about that but then they use .net because i guess it's esier to build desktop programs with, basically the same thing they frown upon cfm.

The biggest draw back for .net is you gotta run it on winblows servers and no josh mono aint gunna cut it either.
I know my linux boxes are far faster than the windows boxes and seem to hold up quite a bit better than the windows boxes did and I don't get notices every week from hms telling me my windows box will be down for it's weakly bandaging.

As far as working with flash, yeah i'd say cfm is the best choice and all those image manipulation wants and needs can be done just like a reg website does them. I mean if you look around you will find CFC's that will grab the image and do whatever you want with it via java and you would be amazed at how little code it takes and it can all be handled with a single CFC.

Whitesites, what you seem to not know or forget is that cfm is based upon the j2ee platform and you can run Java, jsp whatever right from within a coldfusion template, so the power you have is limitless and anything .net can do really java can do better on more platforms.

What it comes down to is if you like it, if you like programming in it. I do some php and previously did some asp and I really don't like their syntax at all.

It also depends on what your job function is and how you view what you deliver to a client. Like Scott just does backends and he likes to use .net and thats cool. Josh does whole websites and he likes .net to and I guess he puts more emphysis on making a backend over making a site visually appealing for the website visitor and if that's what he wants to do then thats cool I guess. I do complete websites as well and I like to leverage my time between making a solid backend and making a nice visual website for the visitors and using coldfusion allows me to do that. Well it allows me the time to spend in all aspects of the process to make them all equal.


OMG Josh LMFAO!!!! this comes from you!! Josh u don't know ****, you never have haha!! god i will be laughing for weeks


Umm again heres Josh not knowing crap again, a simple cfc, udf, cfx, just because you don't know how to do them josh doesn't mean it can't be done,...easily...


thats like u saying .net is more of a programming language and all OOP and stuff and Josh you wouldnt know OOP if it had tits.
You don't have to jump into the java api, if you actually knew what you spewed you'd know that. But no you try and validate your short comings to a a version form 6 years ago lol, gimme a break josh. CFMX was rebuilt from the ground up in cfmx 6


I completely disagree, what would you like to see? again just because you can't do it doesnt mean an average 1st grader couldnt do it.
You havent even used a current version of it so why speak of it? You sit here and always speak like you know it and you don't and no i dont know .net either.


yeah not to mention how great and clean and ready for validating the code is lol.


only 3? lets look at a few cfm can be done with.
cfml
java
jsp
javascriping
yes even .net now
actionscripting, yes you can run that right into cfm
mxml and flex
some flash


fyi~ cfm has several frameworks and like you even use a framework josh, for what? your lil real estate site?


that happened when it went from a tag based syntax in 5 to a compliles java byte code in mx as you expect it would, now migration is simple, actually its a built in function and is almost seemless, again you dont have a clue.


apparently you have been to busy writing your code to have heard about all the things .net is currently breaking from their "legacy" versions.


Thats a problem that occures between the monitor and the chair no matter what language you use.


Why do you not think cfm doesn't have this Josh?


Oh pleazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Josh, you don't scacrafice any control, thats just your own short comings, stop trying to blame it on cfm, cause it's you, always has been, always will be.


HAHA, what have you ever written that was "power" josh? and insert isn't a "power" thing.
If you can't get power out of cfm then you are an idiot.


yeah you'd rather stick your tongue up someones arse in Redmond. I'd rather support a company who promotes and advances the web instead of waiting for someone else to make something good then rip it off or buy them out.



a pretty piss poor one at that.....


whitesites if you want true and accurate info on cfm then go to where you can get it but don't rely on Josh for the info cause he doesn't know crap, he never has, he'd still be using frontpage and frontpage themes if I wouldnt have ripped him so much about it.



yeah thats so you can go back and try to clean the markup up. If this happens then shorthorn will have all the features it origianlly said it would as well lol
and if it does then great, good for it.



If you want to build desktop apps for windows users only, then its great I hear.....

But you're right Scott just depends on what you are doing.

For me personaly cfm is right because I can quickly build backends that are reusable and fast. Not to mention I can build a backend of a site and use the same CFCS to port it to a flash frontend as well without changing any code, it also gives me native support for flash remoting which is AMAZING and also event gateways.

and if you really want you can run cfm and .net together seamlessly with MM's products but you can't do that with ms's products, imagine that.

EIther way I am sure you can get it done with whatever you choose but like I said if you want info on what cfm can or cant do or anything else, ask me or go to a cfm user group but don't ask clueless (josh)

I gotta say josh thats the biggest load of crappola I have ever heard you say.

I like this line lol



so apparently
A: they don't use this on their own products
or
B: Even if it forces them to have good coding habits it would then prove that even with good programming habits you can still build crapola

yet they can't even build a new os that doesn't rely on a 10 year old defective platform, what's that say about their good coding habits?

And along with the generic replies with no underlying content or "proof of concept", here we start again with the personal attacks as we've nothing else constructive to say...

Dave, must you stoop to being a 9 year old at EVERY opportunity?

Dave, the only thing ANY of use have consistently gotten out of you is "m$ sucks linux rules cfm is the shiznit" and personal attacks when we say anything but "cfm is the bestestest ever!!!" Give us ALL a break. Just because you don't like certain facts that are put before you doesn't mean you should switch gears and start trying to downplay others or their abilities.

And now you've seen my code and Im a sh!tty coder? Dave, you know what? You don't know squat about my coding practices or abilities... that's another "piss poor" attempt at redeeming yourself and CF on this forum... you know, since you couldn't think of anything better to say?

For once, I think I speak for EVERYBODY when I say that we'd like to see you JUST ONCE stick to the topic at hand and not pick out a target to try to inflate your already oversized head. You're not as good as you let on, nor are you as knowledgeable as you try to come across. You've done the same thing with a few in the past, and it really gets old. Grow up. Read a book. Stick to a topic.

Beware the opinions, false accusations, and half truths put forth by lofty...

whatever josh, you post was the biggest bunch of crapola i have ever heard!

so lets be fair, if you are going to compare coldfusion from version 4-5 then i will compare .net to asp, since that was the "version" back then, how would that be 4 u? would you like that, would that be a proper rational.

If scott would have posted what you did I would have given it some credibility and duh, your attack was directed right at me, so I am just responding to what you said.

so whitesites really wants to know is how things work with flash(backends), so you wanna put yourself up for a simple test? Kinda put your money with your mouth is and lets see how "easy" and "better" .net is...........

I will even send you the fla, all u gotta do is make the .as in the fla and connect it to .net.

this outta be good............

What attack on you? I didn't attack you... insult you... anything of the sort. Not once in anything did I say "and whatever Dave posts is going to be garbage dave doesn't know squat dave is a n00b", did I? Every chance you get you're running out and discrediting anybody who opposes your thoughts or you favorite technology. And opposition to your train of thought = crappola? I don't think so. What twisted reality are you living in?

Now, I admit dropping CF before CFMX(6) (and I admitted to that) and so you're right... I don't have an intimate knowledge of CF. I said that if anybody disagreed that they should speak up... DUH!!! Now, with you stating that CF4-5 and the MX breeds are nothing like each other, I retract that statement, which was the purpose of stating "If you disagree, please prove me wrong". ESPECIALLY if it's like comparing asp.net to asp.

Whatever it is you want to do, let me know. I'll be a part of anything for the sake of good discussion and learning new things as well as clarifying questions. Also keep in mind not everybody here is a flash vet like yourself. But I'm game.

no u didnt say my name but it was in reference to me, that wasn't hard to figure out.

and i wasnt getting all crappy because someone said something against "my favorite technology", i was all crappy because you were spewing bs all over the place.


it was the way you wrote it josh, then trying to take out java and why would you do that, it's part of the whole cfm technology.

gimme a few minutes and I will have it ready.

and no i am not a flash vet, i am basically a newbie still, it's just not brain surgery.