For all those who are looking for a FrontPage edge:

http://www.microsoftfrontpage.com/content/TipsAndTricks/TipsAndTricks.htm

Anyone else have other good FP resources?

the best frontpage tip there is, is to throw it in the trash and get something good

Now now, lets not bash FrontPage. Although your point has merit, FrontPage does have its uses (and target market.) Its a simple way for a user without significant design / coding knowledge to make a straightforward web page. Most coding professionals typically use Dreamweaver or GoLive these days, but FrontPage is still a very popular web publishing tool.

There are other tools which will do the same for you like Sitestudio & Contribute but what makes FrontPage appealing to some users is that they have a "Microsoft friendly" interface to use which is somewhat familiar to them.

while that is "somewhat" true, its no harder for a newbie to start correctly and learn it right instead of getting into very bad habits and not to mention a very badly coded site that really works against them by using frontpage. Not to mention the limitations of the site by using it!

Unfortunately ppl start using fp and think thats how website are made and its not, thats how cruddy websites are made, thats how bad habits and missimformed users are made. It doesnt take anymore time to learn something that will do the job correctly, actually if the users prints out a simple html cheat sheet they can be off and running faster than trying to learn fp.

I'm sorry if you dissagree but frontpage is a cop-out for lazy ppl.
It's true I started with fp and quickly moved on to dreamweaver and it wasnt any harder to learn.

there are also other alternative products to use that are like frontpage but dont produce the same ie only orientated spagetti crappy code that fp does.

Not to mention with all the new alternative browsers coming out that fp code is made to ONLY render correctly in the crap browser (otherwise known as ie).
If you are serious about a website, then take a day to learn simple html and go from there, I have plenty of links i can share about these things.

I'd also be seriously concerned with anything that is described as "Microsoft friendly".

In my many years in the business I have found computers users have a strong 'resistance to change' what they are using. There are clients of ours perfectly content using Imail as opposed to the new Smartermail which we are currently rolling out. I know of users still running the likes of Win 3.11 and Win 95. It all boils down to the user's proficiency and if it will get the job done easiest for them. If it is a hassle for the server admin, that is not their problem.



I never said I disagreed with you. Someone has to play devil's advocate around here...



hence the quotes around "Microsoft friendly."

I completely know what you are saying

Sometimes these ppl that resist change are the ones that need it the most, they are also the same ones that are always complaining that there stuff isnt working right or not doing whats expected and get all mad at everyone for trying to help! You know what I mean?

true, most users who are not interested in using and learning another product are probably going to need the most tech support, but forcing a user to change what they know and love is a tall order.

It's like ford vs chevy and coke vs pepsi (which is also a video game for atari 2600) I drive a chevy and I like coke and you'll never catch me drinking a pepsi while driving a ford.

These users are familiar with FrontPage and don't want to change. We at HostMysite support FrontPage even if most of us don't use it (some of our techs handwrite code.) We support lots of things that we don't personally use.

Thats understandable!

My point just was that a lot of fp users just don't have any idea about how bad it is, I know ppl that swear by it and I can't figure out why but then I see their site and shake my head lol! Some ppl are just stuck in the 80's what can you do?

if you can't beat em, join em. We could all grow mullets!

lol no friggin way!!

it's more like....

heres the best one

http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/mx/dreamweaver/articles/frontpage_to_dwmx.html

loftboy, a reminder that not all of us have aspirations to become the 'guru' in web coding that you seem to be.

A less abrasive , more objective, well balanced response is effective for some beginners to get the picture that you already have learned.

I am one of those newbies that began with Frontpage, read with intense interest the comments on this forum (I had to sort through the passion and dogma) and am now a full convert to Dreamweaver. It is difficult for me to believe that used FrontPage, but at the time, it was all that I knew, could afford and therefore, started out with.

I have a lot I could learn from those of you that are experts, but I find the dialogue of bashing to be somewhat less than useful because I cannot tell the essence and basis of your position for having the opinions you have.

To the monitors of this forum, I think many of us that read this forum looking to pick up tips, and actually learn something, get turned off by the dialogue of product bashing as it seems to mask well founded opions and actual practices of those doing the bashing.

Still learnin . . . but I could do without the bashing and could use a lot more of your basic wisdom and why it is useful and effective. The emotion clouds the facts you are attempting to represent.

However, I appreciate that some of you are loyal, dedicated contributors to this forum. I thank you for that.

'Just the facts' should be our guiding principle.

we all have different ways that we communicate what we are trying to say and to be perfectly honest, I get sick of speaking that way myself but I also get sick of trying to be nice like that and trying to help ppl who just don't get it until you put it inthose terms and force them to take a look at it really.

I know some ppl dont like it and so????
Just cause you don't like the way I explain things doesn't mean its wrong and you are right by any means.
I have spent yrs upon yrs trying to help ppl out and what i have come to find is that with ppl that use fp they need it put like that to get past all the bull shnitz and get them going instead of wasting 5 months trying to help them to just end up back there.

As these other ppl will learn it gets old after a few yrs and you learn to do it as efficently as possible and if that means being blunt then so be it!

And the truth is frontpage is crap and it teaches bad habits not to mention it produces crappy web sites. And everyone can sit here and argue all they want about oh that its easy and **** but come on thats a lame excuse for laziness. I have a 12yr daughter and niece and they in school they have learned to make html with notepad, not to mention much nicer than a fp site and they are like 12....... So us adults shouldn't rely on that excuse. And if someone is getting into this and are on a forum like this then they obviously care enough about what they are doing so why not get right to the point?

You know i will be here to help anyone but if u expect my help then u better give up a lil bit of something as well, no reason for me or anyone else to sacrifice our time to help someone who wont help themselfs.

And I don't have any asperations to be a guru but this is also a skill sothething to take seriously. It's like would you take your car to a mechanic who uses some book like "car repair for dummies" that he bought for 50 cents on ebay? Thats basically the same thing.

But heres what has made me so jaded k
That I spend my free time trying to help ppl and say they use fp and 3 months later we havent gotten anywhere because they refuse to see whats going on and refuse to give up fp, now u do that for several years and u just wanna smack the ppl because here u r trying to help them but they dont help u back.

You may not understand it now but someday u might.
For work I charge $100 an hr maybe I should just charge that too help these ppl and maybe they will change.
Don't take all this wrong cause im really pretty nice but its funny the ppl who need help the most are the ones who are the biggest PITA's who want it all for free and just how they want it.

But anyways I wont be wasting my time trying to help those like that anymore, there is josh and scott who will do that until they like me get jaded from lazy ppl.




no such thing in this business

the only fact about this is that if u use fp ur heading in the wrong direction

Did u like all your teachers in school? Did each one customize their style to fit just how u want it?
I didnt think so.............

I think you're missing a lot of what he was saying lofty. Of course a car mechanic wouldn't use "Car repair for dummies" - he's a professional. Just like you and I wouldn't use Frontpage - we're professionals. But for the shadetree mechanics out there - "Car Repair for dummies get's them from having a pile of scrap metal to at least having a running car. He may have the plugwires crossed and the timing may be WAY off - but it fires and runs. And that's all he cares about.

Same thing with Frontpage. It can take a totally web inept person and allow them to create somethign they can publish on the web. They may have font tags all over Gods creation and empty divs strewn throughout their creation. But it looks good to them and will publish on the net. And that's all he cares about.

The constant incessant bashing whining crying ranting belittleing etc. is waaaaaaaaaay old...you already drove one guy away by doing it. Dunno how many more have just left and not said anything because of it.

Just relax...enjoy some of our good conversations and when the urge to bash hits you too hard - just stop, and go look for some new cool Firefox plugins...

yeah well i think I usually come here when Im in a bad mood and am avoiding work and that has a lot to do with it but fishin season is here so I will be getting away from this **** puter for awhile and I'm sure I will chill. But giving that I have been trying to buckle in and work and get all this stuff done but I can't cause of this **** os really puts me in bad moods! Then going from there to trying to help ppl who wont help themselfs really sets me off lol.

Trust me I get sick of the **** myself but when I have to backup my whole puter every hour and still get caught with lost data, u'd be going postal at ms too!

Also, fairly soon I'm buying a mac and I'm sure my **** about m$ will be history then.