Yeah I don't do any enterprised sized stuff.
I have my own lil way i like to framework.

and yes I like it quick and dirty, I don't want to spend more than a week on a site, I get bored, that's one reason why I don't go 4 an enterprised sized job, just doesn't interest me. I like fresh content all the time.

Some of the bigger ones I do I will use a more OOP framework. But most ppl on my lists are enterprise coders and they manage just fine, some maybe even use .net or java at work but for their own stuff use cfm.

I can imagine where a non-enterprise level guy would favor something like CFML or PHP over .NET - I can absolutely understand it.

In those kind of site, there's no need for a lot of OOP and the power and flexability that comes with it. But I've seen plenty of shopping cart apps etc written in CFML so they must be doing it somehow. I just haven't yet seen where it's going to be easier/faster than .NET...

Ya gotta admit - the code that Hal wrote and the code that I wrote are night and day...
That .NET class is pretty sweet & streamlined...

well see what some of the cfm pros come back with on your ?.

The cfm carts arent to tough, ok this is a bad example written by a cfm novice but he has almost his whole cart working off this one cfc, well i think he has a shipping one as well but here it is




how i am currently doing this is by making a template page, splitting it in half and making a header and nav and footer pages and running them out of the application.cfc with the header & nav on applicationstart and the footer at onrequestend. SO all i have to do is make a div with the main content.

then i have tags set up to do each function i want and I just include those like such




and that could be the whole page

yes. the website is http://www.cfunited.com.

It starts tomorrow.

Well, I've been researching the CFC vs ASP.NET Class thing and I've come to my original conclusion that a CFC is at best the equivilent to a cross between an include and an ASP.NET User Control. And no, I'm not on good crack. Do your homework and you'll see very clearly how similar these things are.

Yes, it bears a few things similar to a class, and can even take on a somewhat similar looking structure, but is in no way shape or form a class. It doesn't even support all methods or properties commonly associated with a class. The best CF can do is to leave Java to taking care of the classes. Yes, CF / CFC's can communicate with and use already declared classes created with Java, but they can not in fact create a class. Not with CFScript or CFTags. That must be done with Java.

I've presented this on a few other forums as well, and the CFers seem to be dodging this either not knowing about higher level programming or just unable to admit defeat in this area I mean, even Javascript (client side, I know, but still very useful) supports classes. PHP even has better support of classes (talking about native CF Structured stuff like CFScript, CFTags, etc.) now, even though not fully supporting common structures and methods that define a real class.

well i been way to busy to give this any additional thoughts.

ok and if thats so josh then in the real world what good does that do you?

heres what I know, i'll make over 20k this month without giving a rats azz about whether or not cfm can write a "proper" class.
I'll be done and gone working on the next project before you get done writing your "proper" classes. I will also have the choice of where and on what I can run my "improper" classes, it will also give my customers choices of where and on what they can run their projects, it also gives them extra $$ that they save in dev time to add more features to their site or use towards additional marketing.

also at least around here I see there are a lot of .net jobs available and they pay between $25 - $40 an hour and the cfm jobs pay around $45 - $80 an hour, just sayin................

and again you go back to if you want a proper class then right it in java and I don't know why u can't get over that, it's a part of cfm now and every bit as valid to use as it would be in .net, it just gives you the advantage of using RAD when you don't need the extra stuff and then it gives you the full power when you do need it, it's not a very hard concept to understand.

I think what Josh is getting at is the fact that you have sung it from the mountain tops that CF can do anything that .NET can do and well...that obviously isn't the case. If you have to leave CF to use Java for common programming structures then CF is lacking in that area. .NET webbies may be getting $25-$40 an hour and your CF guys may be getting $80 but I know that as a C#.NET web applications developer I am, right now, staring at a 5000 hour, $2.5mil contract. That's $500 an hour. And I am debating on weather or not to take it. So the money depends on the market you are in - not the platform you are developing for.

I don't think any of us are saying that CF is BAD...just not the be all and end all that you tout it to be. .NET isn't it either and I think ALL of us would agree on that. I think the point that Josh and I are getting at is that in the sense of a traditional, strongly typed, truly object oriented language CF doesn't add up.

Why does that mean anything?

As web sites continue to grow and web applications continue to get larger and more complex, laguages like Java and any of the .NET laguages become more and more relevant. Sure you can build dynamic sites with CF, you can do it with PERL or Classic ASP as well. But building complex, enterprise level applications is definately not what those laguages were designed for. You can certianly do it, but it might be easier done in a language more geared toward solving those large, more complex problems.

And you may say "Well I don't ever write anything that complex so CF is perfect." and that may be true, now...but if you ever decide to use or create a robust content management system (phpNuke, dotNetNuke, Rainbow, Drupal) for a site you are building, or even any of the newest forums (phpBB, vBulletin, CommunityServer), those have become so large and complex that they would require the power & flexability that an OOP language provide.

PHP has been stretched to it's limits writing apps like the above mentioned ones and if you ever dive into the code for those it can be a nightmare to figure out. As such the PHP devs as of PHP4 implemented OOP into the language and enhanced it in PHP5. It's just the way things are going. Either you get on the bus or you'll be left behind.

If you can do OOP in CF that's great - but if it looks like the examples that were presented earlier in this thread - you can have it. I think that's what we are boiling down to. Take a look at CF's competators, .NET, Java (yes, a competator), PHP, heck even OOPERL. None of those are tag driven, none require some component to make a class, you don't appear to have to jump through hoops to do common OO tasks like you appear to have to do in CF.

To sum up - for me personally to take a new language seriously it has to at least look like it is heading in a technological forward motion, and that it can at least keep pace with it's closest competators in features and robustness. CF appears, to me, to be stuck in the past with it's CF tags and reliance on Java to do any of the heavy lifting that modern web apps will require. If I am mistaken, please, show me.

I've never worked and made $25/hr on any programming job I've done. About 8 times that is the best I've mustered in this area, and my avg is about 4 times that. But I wasn't talking money... that's out of the scope of this thread.

Im not saying CF won't get you from A to B, but you said that it could do things that it really can't. Im also not taking Java out of the equation... I just think it's counter productive to have 2-3 "versions" or "ways of doing things" when all these other languages provide you with one. I guess that's where CF's quick learning curve comes in though. I know people that've picked up CF in a matter of DAYS. and the people I'm referring to have no real world programming experience. That could be very valuable for alot of people. But it could also hold them back from using advanced programming methods.

Now, I use classes all the time. And user controls They save me a TON of time not having to rewrite code that I've already written. Write once, use many. And right now I'm working on one app for a real estate co that would be assinine to do without classes. Why slam soemthing out real quick when you can spend 15 extra mins on creating a few classes that in the end will save you a few hours of work AND provide you with a very scalable and flexible means of expansion and/or modification of the application?

I do understand what you are saying but it seems ppl cant get over cfm and java being together now, you tend to still think of it as like using html with js and that it is not. CFM is a j2ee product that gives you choices of what you can use and when you want to use them.

It comes down to this, there are 2 major platforms anymore, java & .net, it's just as easy to learn java as .net but when using java with cfm it gives you additional options for RAD development which .net does not have, it gives you or your clients a choice of which platform they can run on which .net does not have. You can just as easily write your classes in java as .net's classes and run them straight through cfm, its all compiled to same java byte code. And just as easily i can ask you things like wheres the whole document search engine in .net where as cfm have verity built in, or gateways, or blah blah blah.

After all .net basically "borrowed" most of their stuff from java so I guess you can say that .nets classes are just a rehash of javas classes and its nothing that .net developed or came up with.

actually i wont fight u on it anymore it's pointless and besided I prefer that there are more .net ppl out there because it makes it that much easier to get get gigs away from them, I have yet to lose a bid to anyone using .net or php, so I am happy and if i want to use proper "classes" I can and if you want to use RAD you can't

LOL - now that's a succinct way of defending your position on a topic "I'm not going to play anymore because, well, I just don't wanna play anymore!"

RAD exists in most platforms today Lofty...Dreamweaver does .NET RAD very very nicely as does Visual Studio.

Can you develop Java inside of a CF IDE? Can you develop CF inside a Java IDE? If the answer is yes then I'll buy your claim that CF and Java are tied together at the hip. If you have to switch development environments to develop one or the other then your argument falls apart and I still look at it as having to learn two technologies in order to do something that countless others can do by themselves.

And Classes are not a JAVA or a .NET thing - they are a PROGRAMMING construct...any language worth it's OOP salt, be it Ruby, Python, PERL, Java, any of the .NET languages, or Pascal etc., will have a class implementation, inheritance and polymorphism.

Now don't take this next question as a flame or anything - but how much programming have you done Lofty? Is most of your coding limited to what I call the "Select Insert Update Delete" type apps, or have you done any OOP development? Again - I am just asking for reference sake...if the SIUD type stuff is where your experience lies then we may be asking the wrong questions.

I hate to get sucked into this argument, but I would like to point out that you can do CF development and Java development together using the Eclipse IDE and the CFEclipse plug-in. Macromedia just recently joined the Eclipse foundation and is working with the cfeclipse team to improve the plugin.

Ok - that answers one question. Thanks Bob

I've used CF and .net, but the price of developing in either language was always more than PHP. For me at least, it seems I just keep coming back to PHP.

Are you using PHP5 dvduval?